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Parking in Hobart road off Barkingside High St.,
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3898johnm
#1 Posted : 13 September 2009 19:45:37(UTC)
Rank: Newbie

Joined: 18/09/2007(UTC)
Posts: 3
In Hobart Rd. adjacent to Somerfields ther has,for many years been a single yellow line with a sign above saying no parking between 0800 and 1830 Monday to Saturday (I hope I got the times right). However, some time ago double yellow lines appeared but the signs remained unchanged. What happens if someone gets a ticket at eight o'clock in the evening? People do constantly park there while they pop into the shop.While most of us would know that double yellow lines mean no parking at anytime there is always going to be the 'couldn't care less brigade' who clog up all the roads off the High St. and then a genuine number who, quite understandably, think that the signs overrule all other factors. Also, a few weeks ago I saw a traffic warden issue a ticket to a disabled badge holder in Sydney Road as he had put two wheels on the footpath which in some peoples view would make commonsense allowing for other vehicles turning into Sydney Road. (The gentleman's car was facing toward the High St.) Do these people have no powers of discretion? I waited until the elderly gentleman returned to explain why he had got a ticket and he clearly had the best of intentions in parking in that manner.I had watched from start to finish parked,ironically but legally, with two wheels on the kerb facing away from the High St.as there is a two car lined space which necessitates two wheels on the pavement. There is also a parking facility for Barclays staff although I still cannot work out how they are meant to access it as there is no dropped kerb facility. If we are going to get tickets then there must be fairness and commonsense applied at all times.
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knowsie
#2 Posted : 14 September 2009 16:00:49(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 03/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 251
3898johnm wrote:
... However, some time ago double yellow lines appeared but the signs remained unchanged. What happens if someone gets a ticket at eight o'clock in the evening? People do constantly park there while they pop into the shop.While most of us would know that double yellow lines mean no parking at anytime there is always going to be the 'couldn't care less brigade' who clog up all the roads off the High St. and then a genuine number who, quite understandably, think that the signs overrule all other factors.


You are quite correct about the signs - they should have been removed. Perhaps they've been left as part of Redbridge's policy of extracting maximum revenue from motorists? Any chance of an official explanation for such a deliberately confusing situation?

The Highway Code http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Tra...rt/Highwaycode/DG_069860, however, is quite explicit (my emphasis):

238

You MUST NOT wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby time plates (or zone entry signs if in a Controlled Parking Zone) – see 'Information signs' and 'Road markings'. Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs.

The section on Road Markings adds additional information about signs, which I don't think apply here:

Double yellow lines mean no waiting at any time, unless there are signs
that specifically indicate seasonal restrictions.


Quote:
Also, a few weeks ago I saw a traffic warden issue a ticket to a disabled badge holder in Sydney Road as he had put two wheels on the footpath which in some peoples view would make commonsense allowing for other vehicles turning into Sydney Road.


I'm quite sure that a lot of people get caught out by this as the full force of the relevant section of the rule applies only in London:

244

You MUST NOT park partially or wholly on the pavement in London, and should not do so elsewhere unless signs permit it. Parking on the pavement can obstruct and seriously inconvenience pedestrians, people in wheelchairs or with visual impairments and people with prams or pushchairs.

I am not familiar with Sydney Road but would this vehicle have impeded, say, a wheelchair or mobility scooter on the footway?
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annesevant
#3 Posted : 15 September 2009 11:40:43(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
Thank you to knowsie for taking the trouble to highlight the complexity of the situation as far as parking in London is concerned.
Could anybody clarify for me what they mean by 'not park in front of the entrance of a property'? One of my current bugbears is the fact that if the kerb is dropped across the whole width of a property, parking opportunities are denied to visitors or tradesmen in the area except if the owner gives permission. Owners of course feel they can park there, which is a massive bonus! You now depend more and more on other properties not using this system: Pay a flat fee and own the right of private parking facilities to a fair chunk of the road for ever! This is a pretty useful asset and will encourage everybody to change the whole of their front garden into a car park and lower the kerb for generous access.
No, I am not having a go at people desperate to park in their front garden who are not lucky enough to have a drive, I am protesting at unnecessary wide entrances, which, I understand are perfectly legal.
A different point: the council does not mind if you drive across the pavement to access a hard stand in the front garden.
I know, because I have emailed them about a specific case and no action whatsoever has been taken. Mind you, it must keep the garagists happy because I cannot see the cars' suspension lasting for ever!
annesevant
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knowsie
#4 Posted : 15 September 2009 13:18:35(UTC)
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Joined: 03/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 251
annesevant wrote:
... the council does not mind if you drive across the pavement to access a hard stand in the front garden.
I know, because I have emailed them about a specific case and no action whatsoever has been taken. Mind you, it must keep the garagists happy because I cannot see the cars' suspension lasting for ever!


However, because it is illegal to drive across the footway, if another car (legally) parks on the highway so that there is no access to the road for a car parked in the front garden, I think you'll find that there is no legal way for that car to 'escape' as the obstructing vehicle is breaking no laws!
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sappy
#5 Posted : 16 September 2009 12:28:57(UTC)
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Joined: 16/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 36
My understanding is that if a car is parked on the drive then you cannot park infront of the dropped kerb, however if the kerb has NOT been dropped and the there is no vehicle on the drive then you can park in front of it.

I'm not sure of the position with regard to a dropped kerb and there is no vehicle on the drive- perhaps someone from the council can answer. We have a number of drives on the woods estate where they have not dropped the kerb or they have a tree directly in front of their drive and have dropped it either side I would have though that the council would not allow this in case damage was done to the tree.
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annesevant
#6 Posted : 17 September 2009 08:36:32(UTC)
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Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
The thread now include two valid questions. One raised by Knowsie (about traffic wardens using their judgement in the case of a disabled driver committing a minor offence, possibly on a technicality when a simple explanation would have done) and the other, Sappy wanting clarification about the difference between blocking somebody in their driveway or preventing them from putting their car in their driveway.
I googled Sappy's query and some London Boroughs have full answers and they are interesting and make sense and are not in favour of the owner of a drive unless it is a shared drive for several households.
I searched the redbridge website but I find myself directed back to the Forum where we ask the questions in the first place!
Hence no answer.
Now, this is not an 'Area' question, it's borough wide. Are we allowed to consult the Cabinet member directly or must we go through Cabinet and ask for clarification at a public meeting in the public participation section?
annesevant
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julie bradley
#7 Posted : 17 September 2009 13:12:11(UTC)
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Joined: 20/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 349
So far as I am aware the Borough uses both its in house traffic wardens and out of hours service by a traffic warden company. Both telephone numbers available from Redbridge i web site, so the answer may depend also on which one issues the ticket! Probably best to go for the clarification to the member for Roads (etc) highways bod, should make for interesting reading.
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Morris Hickey
#8 Posted : 17 September 2009 15:11:07(UTC)
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Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
julie bradley wrote:
So far as I am aware the Borough uses both its in house traffic wardens and out of hours service by a traffic warden company. Both telephone numbers available from Redbridge i web site, so the answer may depend also on which one issues the ticket! Probably best to go for the clarification to the member for Roads (etc) highways bod, should make for interesting reading.


I think you may be wrong. This service is undertaken 24/7 by a contractor. There are no "in house" wardens so far as I am aware.
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julie bradley
#9 Posted : 17 September 2009 16:04:27(UTC)
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Joined: 20/11/2007(UTC)
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I stand corrected, clarification is the name of the game.
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annesevant
#10 Posted : 17 September 2009 16:36:23(UTC)
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Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
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Do you think the contractors are given the rules and regulations?
If they are, any reference, ISBN?, internet? Top secret?
annesevant
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jawal1
#11 Posted : 09 October 2009 09:53:18(UTC)
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Joined: 22/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 32
Changing the subject slightly (usually Anne's prerogative), is the disabled parking area in Horace Road, beside Bairstow Eves, being taken out of use, as the road markings have been obliterated (actually by deliveries of the building materials used in the High Street "improvements")? I noticed that the sign on the post indicating a disabled parking area has been turned round the wrong way.

This begs the question that if the parking area has been incorrectly (i.e. not legally) marked for some time, does that mean that anyone who has received a ticket for parking there can get a refund?

Where should people apply for refunds? What are the rules?
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annesevant
#12 Posted : 09 October 2009 16:04:43(UTC)
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Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
Well jawal1, I only stretch a thread occasionally to create a bit of light-heartenedness and to get a few ' serious minded' people on their high horses! (It works!)
I do agree with you that clarity would help as far as parking regulations are concerned. I did ask if the traffic management enforcers were given an idea of the laws they are applying. I did not get any answers so I guess there is no rule book and the rules are flexible.
The council is in a win-win situation because, if they fine you wrongly, they are not punished financially for it and the 'victim' is only too happy to be off the hook. I would say the majority of people are going to cave in to a fine rather than go through the anguish of a dispute.
annesevant :|
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jawal1
#13 Posted : 11 October 2009 14:03:32(UTC)
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Joined: 22/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 32
I was only joking Anne - and thank you for taking my remark in good spirit.

Some very interesting 'legal' issues have been raised by this thread and perhaps Terry Bowe would be willing to respond to the issues raised.

To take up Anne's point - there ARE supposed to be "rules" AND these should be part of any contract with parking enforcers AND these rules are supposed to be accessible to the Public (so says the Government as of March 2008, I believe).

There is stuff on the Red i Website giving guidance to the Public (in the form of FAQs) but we should know what Policies and Guidance are being given to the Civil Enforcement Officers (CEOs). They can't just make it up as they go along.
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annesevant
#15 Posted : 12 October 2009 09:36:30(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
And I thought things would have cooled over a the long week-end break due to the lack of moderation! (No, I am not volunteering!)
Jawal1 is most constructive in his comments. I hope we get a qualified response.
Things are slowing down at the allotments for the short winter break. I need something to do to alleviate the boredom of fourth age!
annesevant:d
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redimanager
#16 Posted : 12 October 2009 14:14:23(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/12/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,023
"The London Borough of Redbridge as with all other London Boroughs do not and cannot make it up as they go.
Originally this type of enforcement when de-criminalised in 1994 was governed by the Road Traffic Act 1991(RTA 1991) and the then Parking Committee for London issued, The Code of Practice on Parking Enforcement (This publication is still available from publishers Shaw and Sons Limited based in Crayford, Kent DA1 4BZ.
The Borough adhered to this code as to the production of documents and enforcement and this document remains in the same format.
There have been requests to the Department of Transport and Transport for London via Parking Managers and London Councils for this to be updated. This is pending. The Department of Transport issued the Statutory Guidance in line with the Traffic Management Act 2004 (TMA 2004) under now which all Notices are issued. Again the Borough complies with this Guidance.

In response to the various questions raised:

"At Any Time" restrictions (Double Yellow Lines) You are unable to park on these restrictions at anytime, unless you have a Disabled Blue Badge , authorised by a Police Officer in uniform or local authority authorised officer.

The Council on complaint can enforce authorised dropped kerbs, carriageway crossings under Section 14 London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2004.

The complainant has to be a resident, business, tenant of the property affected. A Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) can be issued. No complaint has to be received in relation to dropped pedestrian crossing points a PCN can be issued when the contravention is seen.

On any application for a carriageway crossing, the Council will undertake a site survey to determine the exact location, whether trees, signage is present and whether this may affect what is under the footway, drainage, cabling etc.

A decision will then be made and the applicant advised whether the construction can take place. Should the property be within a Controlled Parking Zone then a yellow line restriction will be placed across the driveway.

This does not allow any parking during the time of the restriction, even the resident. The Council as Highway Authority will never give title to the Highway to a resident or business.

The terms Traffic Wardens, Parking Attendants do not now existed under the TMA 2004. They are known as Civil Enforcement Officers (Parking) CEO's

The Borough employ under contract the parking enforcement company Apcoa Parking UK Limited. The current contract is currently undergoing the required tendering process for renewal on the 1st April, 2010. This will be for a period of five years.

In relation to motor vehicles crossing the footpath which normally is adopted. This remains a criminal offence under Highways and Road Traffic legislation and can only be actioned by the Police or Council authorised staff. The CEO's Parking cannot issue notices for this as they can only action civil enforcement by the way of PCNs.

All disabled persons in receipt of a Blue Badge are supplied with the authorised Department of Transport booklet give details of how to use the badge and display it and when and where and for how long they can park.

Should they have any doubt of this they can contact the Department of Transport or check their website. Failing that they can speak to Council Officers at the Community Care Centre Aldborough Road North. This is where the Blue Badges are issued.

In relation to signage and lineage there are a great deal of urban myths as whether you can have a PCN cancelled. The Council as with other London Boroughs do rely on stated cases.

These are cases that are brought before the Adjudication Service, Parking and Traffic Appeals Service, PATAS and the Higher Courts. There are a key cases heard via PATAS such as the LB Camden-v-K J Minier, which referred to the yellow line ending and white lines beginning, which in this case would have been the residents bay.

In this context it cannot possibly be said that a motorist would be mislead by an absence of T-bars. It also suggests that the established principal of ‘de minimis non curat lex’ applies’ (The law does not concern itself with trifles).

Drivers have to be aware that the restrictions are in force, therefore cannot not misled by the small departures from the road markings. Cotterill-v-Chapman is another case where it was held that from time to time there would be trivial departures from road markings.

In relation to the question of costs the Adjudicators at PATAS can aware costs against with the Council or Appellant if they so wish. Only rarely do the Council claim costs at such hearings and very often as with Appellants these are not given. "

Regards,

Parking management
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etoc2001
#17 Posted : 12 October 2009 17:17:22(UTC)
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Joined: 06/11/2008(UTC)
Posts: 232
‘de minimis non curat lex’ ?

I thought that that maxim was wrong as otherwise shoplifting, for example, wouldn't be a criminal offence if it were true?
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jawal1
#18 Posted : 13 October 2009 08:48:02(UTC)
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Joined: 22/05/2008(UTC)
Posts: 32
Thank you "Parking Management" for a fulsome reply. It is always appreciated when people take notice.

I am sure that by now many people will have 'Googled' some of the cases and regulations that have been quoted.

I am still unsure, however, as to whether or not the obliteration of the road markings in Horace Road is "trivial" as in "Cotterill v. Chapman". I take the point about not barring off the ends of the yellow lines.

As of today (Tuesday) by the way, the post sign for the Disabled Parking Area in Horace Road was still turned round the wrong way.
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annesevant
#19 Posted : 14 October 2009 09:42:02(UTC)
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Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
Firstly, many many thanks to the redimanager for organising a comprehensive response to our many queries.
Secondly, I have copied and pasted a short extract:
[Drivers have to be aware that the restrictions are in force, therefore cannot not misled by the small departures from the road markings. Cotterill-v-Chapman is another case where it was held that from time to time there would be trivial departures from road markings.]

Do you know that on Mossford Lane there are restricted parking hours (term time only)?
Well, parents might know when it is term time but allotment people are no so well informed and visitors to the area cannot be expected to know this. Not rocket science, some will say but, can I point out that the school next to the area is a faith school with different term time to the other schools. So, in my opinion the parking restrictions are unreasonable because of imprecision.
I could take this up at Area 3!
annesevant
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