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dopeyf
#1 Posted : 15 November 2010 14:06:27(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 554
Along with most other councils Redbridge has taken more than a year to institute an E-petition system,despite a whole raft of readymade programs,one gets the impression that neither councillors nor officers have any interest in this new method of local participation. Councillors and Political Parties should welcome this innovation and make use of it, their failure to do so would only confirm that they do not actually want to engage with local people.

There is a major problem, in that the thresholds have been set too high, either Officers have done their research with Kingston and Bristol (they have operated epetitions for 6 years) and deliberately set the thresholds too high ,or even worse have done no research at all!

Kingston
If a petition contains more than 500 signatures it will be debated by the full Council for up to 30minutes.If your petition contains at least 500 signatures, the relevant senior officer maybe called to give evidence at a public meeting of the Council’s Scrutiny Panel.

The proposed Redbridge thresholds If you want your petition to be reported to and debated at a meeting of the Council, it must contain at least 1,500 signatories or petitioners. where an officer, identified either by name or by post your petition should contain at least 1,250 signatories .

Judging by Kingston and Bristol’s experience,very rarely will petitions reach these numbers,therefore
It is suggested that, for an exploratory period of say six months, that the numbers be reduced to those
of Kingston, if Officers and Councillors are serious about transparency and local engagement there is still time to change the numbers.
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Morris Hickey
#2 Posted : 15 November 2010 14:12:38(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
Of course they don'e want it. Why are you surprised? Angry Cursing
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dopeyf
#3 Posted : 16 November 2010 15:36:28(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 554
Bristol and Kingston have both run E-Petitions for some 6 years.
Currently showing in Kingston are 18 Petitions - none of which whould trigger a council debate in Redbrige, but would trigger several in Kingston.

Bristol (population 433,00 as against Redbridge's 267,000) is showing 110 Petitions over the last 18months of which only 3 would trigger a council debate in Redbridge.

As you can see although Redbridge may have complied with the letter of the law, they have placed the thresholds so high that neither Officers or Councillors will be troubled.You could have a situation where a whole road (almost any road) could sign a petition against say the withdrawal of lighting and it would still not be enough to trigger a debate.

There is enormous scope here for individual councillors,specialist groups, and even Cabinet members to test the validity of proposals and ideas.
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cllrbond
#4 Posted : 16 November 2010 15:42:04(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 01/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 124
I understand we have one of the required size received already.

The e-petitions facility should hopefully be up and running next month.
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Morris Hickey
#5 Posted : 16 November 2010 15:57:26(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
cllrbond wrote:
I understand we have one of the required size received already.


That's complacency Ian. It no more justifies a high threshold level than the failure to have a paper version of the CONversation 2010 can be justified.
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dopeyf
#6 Posted : 16 November 2010 17:08:00(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 554
Cllor Bond - one swallow does not make a summer,and that one is not a justification for such a high threshold

below is a summary from the Local Government Network paper on Bristol and Kingston experiments

There was some evidence that e-petitioning reinforces civic-mindedness,
as it has so far been used by people who believe that community action
can influence decision-making but have not previously taken such action
themselves.
There was support for the view that e-petitioning strengthens the role
of the councillor by making it more visible and by offering greater
convenience and choice to citizens who wish to raise concerns through
the formal processes of their council.
The e-petitioning project increased transparency
Encourages debate
The issues raised through e-petitioning are unarguably issues that
are important to citizens, and are evidently addressed through local
authority decision-making.

And here are some of the reasons why you and other councillors should absolutely ensure the sucess of e Petitions

"I can see why councillors are threatened. It takes over their role to some extent. It is also the first time councils will have had something negative about them on their own websites," he said.

We are faced with an increasing disengagement of the public from
politicians, government and political parties.

Disengagement undermines the legitimacy of local authorities
and identifying ways to re-engage local citizens is an urgent challenge.
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dopeyf
#7 Posted : 17 November 2010 09:33:07(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 554
Cllor Bond,
in the interests of transparency, perhaps you can ascertain from the officers who suggested the current threshold levels, exactly how
they arrived at these figures, as the only examples they had to go on were Bristol and Kingston, set at a third of Redbridges levels.It would appear to me that there is no defendable basis for this level, however,
I will be interested in how they settled on 1500 and 1250.
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Morris Hickey
#8 Posted : 17 November 2010 09:37:31(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
And I would be interested too in the reasons why the cabinet endorsed those figures rather than setting a lower threshold in support of residents.
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markmason7
#9 Posted : 17 November 2010 12:13:02(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Morris Hickey wrote:
And I would be interested too in the reasons why the cabinet endorsed those figures rather than setting a lower threshold in support of residents.


Easy: Redbridge's scheme was in keeping with the government's local communities draft scheme issued by the goverment on 2nd April 2010, i.e. that to trigger a debate by full council 1500 signatures are required, and to hold an officer to account 1250 signatures are required.

The Statutory guidance issued by the Government advises that:

"petitions with a significant level of support trigger a debate of the full council.Councils will determine this threshold locally but it must be no higher than 5 per cent of the local population...", which for Redbridge would be 13,350!

but it also states that:

"where practical, local authorities set low thresholds..."

and...

"These thresholds can be reviewed after a period of activity and amended if necessary"

Unfortunately in the model scheme in Annex A of the guidance the government actually suggests:

"If your petition has received 1500 signatures or more it will also be scheduled for a council debate."

It seems as though someone at the full council meeting decided to set the thresholds to a level as high as they could get away with and just copied what's in the guidance, conveniently ignoring the advice to set low thresholds! Everyone else just followed?? (sorry I missed the meeting).
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cllrbond
#10 Posted : 18 November 2010 12:28:11(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 01/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 124
In my own view this is certainly something we could look at once we have some experience of how the new scheme works out.

Meanwhile if you haven't found it, there's a link to the register of petitions received on this page of the website:

http://www.redbridge.gov...e_council/petitions.aspx
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markmason7
#12 Posted : 03 January 2011 13:07:13(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Blink Anyone know where the wonderful new e-petitions facility is that was supposed to be up and running on this site by 15th December?

Mellow
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Morris Hickey
#13 Posted : 03 January 2011 14:19:28(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
markmason7 wrote:
Blink Anyone know where the wonderful new e-petitions facility is that was supposed to be up and running on this site by 15th December?

Mellow


Mark - 15 December is correct, it's just the year that's undecided. Drool
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annesevant
#14 Posted : 03 January 2011 14:51:24(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 14/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 975
I just checked the link provided by Cllr Bond, deputy-leader of the Council. The year is mentioned as 2010.
Moral of the story? Say: 'I never did it' as much as you like, and keep your fingers crossed but never say 'I will do something', because you don't know what the future holds!
Are various petitions handed in to the council available for inspection by the public on demand or, if you are curious, do you need to go for freedom of information? (I would love to peruse the 20,000+ petition supporting one of the optional school to be created in Barkingside. How many pages would that be and who is checking?
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markmason7
#15 Posted : 02 February 2011 16:21:15(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Angry Confused This is beyond a joke!
Can anyone from the council tell me when Redbridge is going to comply with the law and get an e-petitions facility on this site please?

thank you
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Morris Hickey
#16 Posted : 02 February 2011 16:27:37(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
markmason7 wrote:
Angry Confused This is beyond a joke!
Can anyone from the council tell me when Redbridge is going to comply with the law and get an e-petitions facility on this site please?

thank you


Doubtless not this week if they think they can avoid it!Angry
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markmason7
#17 Posted : 02 February 2011 16:36:48(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Well, other Local Authorities can do it! Take a look at Surrey's facility:

http://petitions.surreycc.gov.uk/

Glare
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Morris Hickey
#18 Posted : 02 February 2011 17:29:03(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
Don't doubt it Mark - but we're in Deadbridge. Sad
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markmason7
#19 Posted : 11 February 2011 15:58:57(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Dear Redbridge Citizens,

I decided to undertake a small bit of research and made an FOI request from all 33 London Boroughs regarding their current and future e-petition facilities. This was a few days ago, and as you may be aware councils have 20 days to respond. I have already got 10 responses, and all except Redbridge have an e-petitions facility where you can create and sign electronic e-petitions. Of course this is a small sample and I am awaiting responses from all 33 London boroughs before I analyse and publish my findings.

Needless to say the response I got from Redbridge was very disheartening. Here is a brief summary of their response:

" The Council, exercising the discretion advised in the letter of 24th September from the Department for Communities and Local Government, will take no further action on developing a bespoke e-petition facility until the Localism Bill is enacted, and greater clarity is provided regarding any duties upon the Authority in respect of petitions/e-petitions."

and

"Clause 27 of the Localism Bill now provides for the repeal of the whole of Chapter 2, Part 1 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009"

and

"The only requirements of Section 10 of the 2009 Act are to provide a facility for making petitions in electronic form to the Council. This is not explained further in the Act. The Council takes the view that compliance with e-petitions requirements needs only the ability of members of the public to be able to submit a petition electronically. This is provided for in the Council's existing Scheme, which includes provision at para 3.4 for petitions to be sent electronically.

So what did I do after I got that? Well of course I checked the council's petitions scheme, which completely contradicts the reply quoted above. the petition scheme clearly describes a facility which allows citizens to creat an e-petition on line, and which will be maintained by the council website in order that people may add electronic signatures. it goes on...

Further details are abailable on request and I shall no doubt be publishing all my responses on the Redbridge Community Forums in due course. I would welcome any comments of support from any members of the public on the matter of enabling those who wish to to make proper e-petitions on line, where other members of the public can sign them electronically.

I can now say that compared to other London boroughs Redbridge is not doing very well in engaging its citizens via e-petitions.

What I am thinking is:

1. How much money had Redbridge already invested in its own bespoke e-petitions facility before December 15th 2010?

2. Why were we being led to believe that they fully intended to get an e-petitions facility up and running by 15th December 2010?

3. It's all about public engagement isn't it?

Yes I know about the cuts thanks

Mark
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Morris Hickey
#20 Posted : 11 February 2011 18:02:03(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 06/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,399
Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
Mark - are you surprised?
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markmason7
#21 Posted : 11 February 2011 18:38:15(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 30/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 76
Morris Hickey wrote:
Mark - are you surprised?


Not really!
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