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It's snowing, so where are the gritters?
Beermonster
#1 Posted : 05 February 2012 00:27:10(UTC)
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Joined: 05/02/2012(UTC)
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Just been driving around Ilford, through Romford rd, Cranbrook rd, Green Lane etc, but not a single sight of any gritting lorries or even seeing that the roads had been gritted.

Everyone knew that snow was on its way, so why no gritting?

Has anyone seen any gritters tonight?
1 user thanked Beermonster for this useful post.
Morris Hickey on 05/02/2012(UTC)
Morris Hickey
#2 Posted : 05 February 2012 01:15:19(UTC)
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Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
Exactly the same in December 2010 - snow forecast on 15 December, Redbridge grinds to a halt on 18 December.

High council tax for third rate service. ROLL ON 1 MAY 2014 - let's dump them.
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ashokdrathod on 06/02/2012(UTC)
weggis
#3 Posted : 05 February 2012 14:10:43(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 04/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 564
Location: Redbridge Eye
@RedbridgeLive Redbridge Council
Our gritting teams were out yesterday ensuring all main routes are clear & safe.See gritted roads here http://ow.ly/8SL9T #Redbridge #snow

@RedbridgeLive Redbridge Council
Redbridge gritters spread over 300 tonnes of salt in the Borough last night http://ow.ly/8SLxz #snow


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Morris Hickey on 05/02/2012(UTC)
Morris Hickey
#4 Posted : 05 February 2012 15:16:07(UTC)
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Fine, Weggis. So why were New North Road and Manford Way - both bus routes - in such an appalling condition last night?
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weggis on 05/02/2012(UTC)
cllrbond
#7 Posted : 05 February 2012 15:24:17(UTC)
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Joined: 01/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 124
All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm. Remember that the rock salt laid down before snowfall will not on its own melt six inches of snow that has fallen on top - the idea is to stop ice forming as the snow in contact with the road melts. Traffic on busier roads will grind the salt, snow and snowmelt together and those roads will be snow free earlier. Roads with lower traffic density will not clear so quickly, but the salt laid down before the snowfall should improve grip and reduce the likelihood of ice beneath the snow. Drivers should nevertheless drive slowly and take plenty of care!
weggis
#5 Posted : 05 February 2012 15:43:20(UTC)
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Location: Redbridge Eye
Morris Hickey;13466 wrote:
Fine, Weggis. So why were New North Road and Manford Way - both bus routes - in such an appalling condition last night?

But presumably sufficiently passable to get you to and from the New Fairlop Oak?
Morris Hickey
#6 Posted : 05 February 2012 15:49:54(UTC)
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Location: Too close to Redbridge-i censorship
weggis;13468 wrote:
Morris Hickey;13466 wrote:
Fine, Weggis. So why were New North Road and Manford Way - both bus routes - in such an appalling condition last night?

But presumably sufficiently passable to get you to and from the New Fairlop Oak?


Impassable for most, if not all, buses on route 462 (and possibly 362) and the railway replacement service.
ashokdrathod
#8 Posted : 06 February 2012 17:15:46(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 13/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 71
cllrbond;13467 wrote:
All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm. Remember that the rock salt laid down before snowfall will not on its own melt six inches of snow that has fallen on top - the idea is to stop ice forming as the snow in contact with the road melts. Traffic on busier roads will grind the salt, snow and snowmelt together and those roads will be snow free earlier. Roads with lower traffic density will not clear so quickly, but the salt laid down before the snowfall should improve grip and reduce the likelihood of ice beneath the snow. Drivers should nevertheless drive slowly and take plenty of care!


Cllr Bond...I have checked the gritting schedule as you have stated from the council's website. I have looked at the pdf document viewed from 'gritting' page under 'gritting routes', titled 'ROADS ON GRITTING SCHEDULE 2011/2012'. Water Lane as well as other roads are on this schedule and I assure you that these were not gritted on 04/02/2012 as from 3pm or on on 05/02/2012 as from 6pm! It is all well and good, you giving us a statement in to the science of how gritting works when applied....in this instance it was not applied. Therefore, for you to state, I quote, "All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm", is incorrect, misleading and damaging for an elected person of your standing, which can easily be seen as a cover up plan in failure to do something. Please do not in the future try to pull the wool over the eyes of Redbridge residents who live and work around the Borough....as well as those people passing to and from the Borough using the roads. In view of the above, I personally do not give your comments / statement much weight on this matter! In fact I agree with Morris Hickey's comments and posts on this matter!
ashokdrathod
#9 Posted : 06 February 2012 17:37:49(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 13/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 71
ashokdrathod;13471 wrote:
cllrbond;13467 wrote:
All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm. Remember that the rock salt laid down before snowfall will not on its own melt six inches of snow that has fallen on top - the idea is to stop ice forming as the snow in contact with the road melts. Traffic on busier roads will grind the salt, snow and snowmelt together and those roads will be snow free earlier. Roads with lower traffic density will not clear so quickly, but the salt laid down before the snowfall should improve grip and reduce the likelihood of ice beneath the snow. Drivers should nevertheless drive slowly and take plenty of care!


Cllr Bond...I have checked the gritting schedule as you have stated from the council's website. I have looked at the pdf document viewed from 'gritting' page under 'gritting routes', titled 'ROADS ON GRITTING SCHEDULE 2011/2012'. Water Lane as well as other roads are on this schedule and I assure you that these were not gritted on 04/02/2012 as from 3pm or on on 05/02/2012 as from 6pm! It is all well and good, you giving us a statement in to the science of how gritting works when applied....in this instance it was not applied. Therefore, for you to state, I quote, "All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm", is incorrect, misleading and damaging for an elected person of your standing, which can easily be seen as a cover up plan in failure to do something. Please do not in the future try to pull the wool over the eyes of Redbridge residents who live and work around the Borough....as well as those people passing to and from the Borough using the roads. In view of the above, I personally do not give your comments / statement much weight on this matter! In fact I agree with Morris Hickey's comments and posts on this matter!


Further, if all roads on the gritting schedule were gritted, then surely there would be evidence of the grit residue which would have collected on the sides of the roads, now that the snow has melted away (i.e. due to the mild temperature that we have had after the snow fall & not because that it has been gritted, which never was)! However, I have failed to see or witness any grit residue on the kerb side of the roads, whilst I was out earlier this Monday 6th Feb 2012 afternoon (not only on Water lane but also on Green lane)!
redimanager
#19 Posted : 07 February 2012 13:56:30(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 12/12/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,023
Our Gritting vehicles were out from 3pm Saturday 4th February treating all routes at 20g/m2 until 6am Sunday morning.
All our gritting routes were treated twice and our major traffic routes were treated three times. These particular roads are on our traffic routes and were treated three times.

It takes six hours to treat all our routes and the salt/grit requires trafficking to assist the snow and ice to clear.

On behalf of Highways Services by Rediamanager.
ashokdrathod
#10 Posted : 07 February 2012 14:22:06(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 13/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 71
ashokdrathod;13472 wrote:
ashokdrathod;13471 wrote:
cllrbond;13467 wrote:
All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm. Remember that the rock salt laid down before snowfall will not on its own melt six inches of snow that has fallen on top - the idea is to stop ice forming as the snow in contact with the road melts. Traffic on busier roads will grind the salt, snow and snowmelt together and those roads will be snow free earlier. Roads with lower traffic density will not clear so quickly, but the salt laid down before the snowfall should improve grip and reduce the likelihood of ice beneath the snow. Drivers should nevertheless drive slowly and take plenty of care!


Cllr Bond...I have checked the gritting schedule as you have stated from the council's website. I have looked at the pdf document viewed from 'gritting' page under 'gritting routes', titled 'ROADS ON GRITTING SCHEDULE 2011/2012'. Water Lane as well as other roads are on this schedule and I assure you that these were not gritted on 04/02/2012 as from 3pm or on on 05/02/2012 as from 6pm! It is all well and good, you giving us a statement in to the science of how gritting works when applied....in this instance it was not applied. Therefore, for you to state, I quote, "All roads on the gritting schedule (available from the website - search "gritting") were done yesterday afternoon/evening from 3pm, and will be done again this evening from 6pm", is incorrect, misleading and damaging for an elected person of your standing, which can easily be seen as a cover up plan in failure to do something. Please do not in the future try to pull the wool over the eyes of Redbridge residents who live and work around the Borough....as well as those people passing to and from the Borough using the roads. In view of the above, I personally do not give your comments / statement much weight on this matter! In fact I agree with Morris Hickey's comments and posts on this matter!


Further, if all roads on the gritting schedule were gritted, then surely there would be evidence of the grit residue which would have collected on the sides of the roads, now that the snow has melted away (i.e. due to the mild temperature that we have had after the snow fall & not because that it has been gritted, which never was)! However, I have failed to see or witness any grit residue on the kerb side of the roads, whilst I was out earlier this Monday 6th Feb 2012 afternoon (not only on Water lane but also on Green lane)!


Update.....Guess what? Water Lane & Green Lane appears to have been gritted yesterday late evening (i.e. 06/02/2012) or perhaps overnight (i.e. early hours of 07/02/2012), as this morning I have observed fresh grit on the roads. Yesterday afternoon, as I had said the snow had melted away due to the mild temperature after the snow fall......therefore; it is beyond reasonable comprehension as to why the roads are gritted when the snow has melted? I have just checked the council's website this afternoon (07/02/2012) under the gritting page for gritting update, where it states that 'all routes will be gritted from 7pm on 07/02/2012. All routes were gritted on 06/02/2012, 05/02/2012 & 04/02/2012. I, like Beermonster (ref: Beermonster's post of 05/02/2012 00:27:10 hrs) know for sure that the roads as mentioned by Beermonster were not gritted, as claimed by council official/s & councillor/s (they may have been on the evening of 06/02/2012?). Please note the snow fell on the evening of 04/02/2012 and this was on the cards by Met weather in the week ahead that we were going to this from the East (i.e. Siberia & Russia). Most of European countries were under inches of snow already, prior to 03/02/2012. People may have worked hard behind the gritting operations team but I would say the upper management in the council left it too late to instruct the go ahead to the operations team (i.e. the drivers of gritting vehicles). I would say well done to the drivers of the gritters, who are not at fault here. It is the people behind the coordination tasks, who appears to have dragged their heals. Red tape at it's best.
weggis
#11 Posted : 08 February 2012 00:18:26(UTC)
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ashokdrathod @14:22pm wrote:

Yesterday afternoon, as I had said the snow had melted away due to the mild temperature after the snow fall......therefore; it is beyond reasonable comprehension as to why the roads are gritted when the snow has melted? I have just checked the council's website this afternoon (07/02/2012) under the gritting page for gritting update, where it states that 'all routes will be gritted from 7pm on 07/02/2012.

Melting snow during the day, followed by a clear night with a Full Moon over Fairlop Waters produces extremely cold temperatures - ergo ICE. That's why the Gritters have been out tonight.

It is advisable to engage brain when commenting on this site.

ashokdrathod
#12 Posted : 08 February 2012 16:54:05(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 13/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 71
weggis;13485 wrote:
ashokdrathod @14:22pm wrote:

Yesterday afternoon, as I had said the snow had melted away due to the mild temperature after the snow fall......therefore; it is beyond reasonable comprehension as to why the roads are gritted when the snow has melted? I have just checked the council's website this afternoon (07/02/2012) under the gritting page for gritting update, where it states that 'all routes will be gritted from 7pm on 07/02/2012.

Melting snow during the day, followed by a clear night with a Full Moon over Fairlop Waters produces extremely cold temperatures - ergo ICE. That's why the Gritters have been out tonight.

It is advisable to engage brain when commenting on this site.



Wow...part extract taken from my post of '#11 Posted : 08 February 2012 00:18:26', which is totally responded to out of context. Please see below the sentence before the part extract lifted by Weggis;

'Update.....Guess what? Water Lane & Green Lane appears to have been gritted yesterday late evening (i.e. 06/02/2012) or perhaps overnight (i.e. early hours of 07/02/2012), as this morning I have observed fresh grit on the roads.'

The above was in reference to specifically Water Lane & Green Lane and not Fairlop Waters. I understand that Fairlop Waters (an area which is open and perhaps more exposed to the clear skies & full moon at night unlike some urban areas e.g. Barkingside). However, given that I specifically commented about Water Lane & Green Lane which yesterday (07/02/2012 all day) and afternoon of (06/02/2012) was under clear sunshine after the snow had already melted away, due to thawing / mild drop in temperature after the snow fall (not because it was gritted in the hours before or after the snow fall on the evening of 04/02/2012). The sun in the afternoon of 06/02/2012 helped to prevent icy conditions already, where the roads were completely dry by the evening of 06/02/2012. Given this, Green Lane and Water Lane was gritted as from 7pm on 06/02/2012 (ref: council's web page under gritting) or early hours of 07/02/2012 as my above comment stated (which to my observation was the first time, sine the snow fall). My comments were of two fold in regards Green Lane & Water, i.e; a.) gritting was not done in time, i.e. hours before and after the snow fall on the evening of 04/02/2012, b.) gritting applied when snow had melted away and that day time sun had dried up the roads already before the evening of 06/02/2012 which did not have any potential risk of ICE. For ice to be formed it requires H2O presence.

Therefore Weggis........before you start to engage brains from your end, be sure to comment on things in context, as your comment is clearly referring to Fairlop Waters, where as my comment was referring to Water Lane & Green Lane.
weggis
#13 Posted : 09 February 2012 00:25:48(UTC)
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ashokdrathod;13492 wrote:
<snip> Therefore Weggis........before you start to engage brains from your end, be sure to comment on things in context, as your comment is clearly referring to Fairlop Waters, where as my comment was referring to Water Lane & Green Lane.

I had no idea that the clear night and full moon over Fairlop Waters could not be seen a mere mile or so to the south in Water Lane & Green Lane, even though I could clearly see the clear sky over that area from my open vantage point at Fairlop Waters - even without my spectacles.

I am of course assuming that we are referring to those named roads in Ilford and not elsewhere?



ashokdrathod
#14 Posted : 10 February 2012 00:41:17(UTC)
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weggis;13498 wrote:
ashokdrathod;13492 wrote:
<snip> Therefore Weggis........before you start to engage brains from your end, be sure to comment on things in context, as your comment is clearly referring to Fairlop Waters, where as my comment was referring to Water Lane & Green Lane.

I had no idea that the clear night and full moon over Fairlop Waters could not be seen a mere mile or so to the south in Water Lane & Green Lane, even though I could clearly see the clear sky over that area from my open vantage point at Fairlop Waters - even without my spectacles.

I am of course assuming that we are referring to those named roads in Ilford and not elsewhere?





Wow.......brains truly engaged with the above comments. However, it must be true in the saying.....when you can not justify your points any longer; you begin to falter, waffle and divert away from the subject matter. LOL LOL LOL
ashokdrathod
#20 Posted : 10 February 2012 01:13:25(UTC)
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"Gritting update: We will be gritting all routes on Thursday 9 February from 7pm, with a follow-on treatment of all routes from 11pm", statement from council's website, gritting page.

Well, well, well.....No sign of gritters again around the roads off the south-east side of the A1083 & A1083 itself as from 7pm & 11pm on 09/02/2012, particularly when we had a short fall of snow in the evening (which did not settle but it melted straight away as it hit the ground). Such moderation of melting snow fall under freezing temperatures, in the absence of grit is now a potential risk for black ice to occur on the roads (overnight). Yet again, truly disappointed.....it appears lessons have not been learnt!Angry Mad Cursing
ashokdrathod
#21 Posted : 10 February 2012 11:48:35(UTC)
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Posts: 71
"Gritting update: We will be gritting all routes on Thursday 9 February from 7pm, with a follow-on treatment of all routes from 11pm", statement from council's website, gritting page.

Why post incorrect and such misleading information on the council's web page, when clearly all routes were not attended to, as per the listed schedule on the same gritting update page. Way to go people.....excellent PR!
weggis
#15 Posted : 10 February 2012 13:31:37(UTC)
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Joined: 04/07/2007(UTC)
Posts: 564
Location: Redbridge Eye
You complained that gritting was done when, in your opinion, it was not necessary, remember?

ashokdrathod wrote:
Yesterday afternoon, as I had said the snow had melted away due to the mild temperature after the snow fall......therefore; it is beyond reasonable comprehension as to why the roads are gritted when the snow has melted?

You wrote in reply to me:

ashokdrathod wrote:
b.) gritting applied when snow had melted away and that day time sun had dried up the roads already before the evening of 06/02/2012 which did not have any potential risk of ICE. For ice to be formed it requires H2O presence.

So, tell me, on those days when there has been no snow and no rain but there is a very cold DRY night in store and we wake to find frost all over the ground and on our cars – where do you think the “H2O presence” came from? And would you complain when gritting is done in those circumstances, as is often the case?

“reasonable comprehension” eh! My turn to laugh LOL LOL LOL LOL
weggis
#22 Posted : 10 February 2012 15:46:15(UTC)
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Location: Redbridge Eye
For the record the above post has been modified by Redimanager with no reason given.
A quote from ashokdrathod at its head plus a comment from me has been removed although the quote remains on the original post from which it was taken.

ashokdrathod
#16 Posted : 10 February 2012 18:11:12(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 13/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 71
weggis;13517 wrote:
You complained that gritting was done when, in your opinion, it was not necessary, remember?

ashokdrathod wrote:
Yesterday afternoon, as I had said the snow had melted away due to the mild temperature after the snow fall......therefore; it is beyond reasonable comprehension as to why the roads are gritted when the snow has melted?

You wrote in reply to me:

ashokdrathod wrote:
b.) gritting applied when snow had melted away and that day time sun had dried up the roads already before the evening of 06/02/2012 which did not have any potential risk of ICE. For ice to be formed it requires H2O presence.

So, tell me, on those days when there has been no snow and no rain but there is a very cold DRY night in store and we wake to find frost all over the ground and on our cars – where do you think the “H2O presence” came from? And would you complain when gritting is done in those circumstances, as is often the case?

“reasonable comprehension” eh! My turn to laugh LOL LOL LOL LOL


Okay....so what is now implied by weggis, is that council gritters are out on all frosty mornings (e.g. throughout the winter months) and not just during snow fall? LOL LOL LOL It appears Weggis keeps missing the point. Confused Weggis is very good in lifting part text extracts from people's comments and putting them out of context, as he is good at manipulating and twisting words.Sneaky ThumbDown

We had the first snow fall last Saturday (late evening of 04/02/2012). Gritters were not out in the hours before or after the snow fall on ALL ROUTES as claimed. Those routes which were neglected, had dried up by the grace of the sun during the afternoon of 06/02/2012 and the following day (07/02/2012). However, it was as from 7pm or much later on the evening of 07/02/2012 that gritting was applied to those roads which were not visited on the evening of 04/02/2012 and the following day (05/02/2012). The comment / constructive criticism being made here (I guess in Weggis eyes...under his specs from spec-savers) is deemed / labelled as one of a complainer....?

Yesterday late evening (09/02/2012) we had a second batch of snow fall (which was light unlike the first time round), which melted straight away, but under freezing overnight temperatures that H2O impacting on potential risk for icy roads. Again, not all roads on the schedule were gritted. That is the same roads which were neglected before, as I have commented in my post of 10 February 2012 01:13:25 under this subject heading.

Simply.........not all roads were gritted when required and as claimed under the council's web page, 'gritting' update (which is misleading). Some roads neglected earlier, were gritted once the snow and ice had melted away under the sun, during the day (07/02/2012). Then we have a repeat scenario last night (09/02/2012), as of the evening of 04/02/2012, when again all roads were not gritted as per the schedule mentioned by Cllr Bond. This defies beyond 'reasonable comprehension' as to why council like to grit (waste it) when not required and that they do not grit when required.....surely this is evident in itself of poor management and lack of proper coordination in this matter?......I rest my Case!!!
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